Cameo vs 1st Appearance: Did Investors Get Ms. Marvel Wrong?

A factor is rarity. For Ms. Marvel 1 there are 6,400 copies on the census with a median grade of 9.4. For the MSH13 there are only 2,100 copies with a median grade of 6.5. Also she isn’t Ms. Marvel in the MCU which deters collectors from that book.

• Great analysis! So you don't think it matters that much that Carol only shows up on a couple of panels in MSH13 and isn't really a part of the story?

Ms. Marvel #1 would never be Carol Danvers' first appearance, even if MSH 13 was considered a cameo (which I don't think it is). Carol Danvers had numerous appearances in the Captain Marvel comic prior to Ms. Marvel #1. The rarity of high grade copies of MSH 13 is I'm sure a big driver in how valuable they are, in addition to being the first appearance of Carol Danvers and the second appearance of Mar-Vell.

• Thanks for reading and for your great analysis!

• This comment contains essentially what I was going to stay. Cameos are a confusing concept. Hulk 180 is the first appearance of Wolverine, but his appearance in 181 is far more significant. MSH 13 is the first appearance and it is silly to assert that that would rather be Ms. Marvel 1 as she appeared more times in between in the pages of Captain Marvel. Carol did not become Captain Marvel until rather recently, so it is furthermore confusing to worry about the first Carol as Captain Marvel as the first Carol. This is a modern development. Mar-Vell had already been Captain Marvel for decades. Ms. Marvel 1 was a heavily SPECULATED first issue that has more issues in high grade than can sustain the prices that were realized at its peak. It is not undervalued currently, but a bigger role for Captain Marvel in the MCU may bring demand up increasing the price. MSH being a squarebound overlooked book for decades meant the extant copies were not going to be high grade. That difficulty in finding a nice copy in addition to the time period of its release has driven prices up. Both books are nice to have, but they can't be what they aren't.

I think if the character is present in the issue and it is clearly the character (not just a leg obscured in shadow or nonsense) that is the first. You cannot make a cameo if you are not actually there. If you are there for a cameo, it is also your first appearance. Your top two examples illustrate this perfectly.

As you note, a first appearance does not have to be the issue people want, and it is perfectly acceptable to have other issues reach higher sales. But the designation of first needs to be unified so that there is cohesion.

I think you are more talking about cost of a book which I think is wholly different than is it a first -v- cameo. The designation of first -v- cameo is potentially a strong driver of price, but as things stand right now IMHO the only right/wrong choice is for which book the market pays the most which cements MSH13 as the winner.

We all know it is a fickle market driven by money paid and not an underlying structure. Until a structure is in place, the only mistake or getting wrong boils down to what the market will pay. I agree with most of what you are saying in that the multiplier difference is a bit high. However, I think there are a few other factors leading to the price difference that justify it bucking the trend.

Projected print run, age (you mention) really makes a big difference for the era, and square bound spines.

Print runs are harder to "know" but the BA had some pretty high numbers. Dipping back 9 years into the SA when comic collecting was not as much of a thing makes a big difference. Locating high grade SA books for any title is not an easy task. I think that the Comic Price Guide and emergence of the LCS in the early 70s is no small part of book quality difference. I'll take shops over spinner / magazine racks any day! Lastly, that square bound spine is brutal. Unless you've really searched for them, it's hard to express how tough they are.

All those factors together IMHO account for the price difference. Add in msteele583 comments and there are other reasons for MS13 being valuable.

The books you are comping to came out right after each other, so there is no print run variance of note. Maybe (I've not checked) ASM300 got a bump due to the anniversary issue treatment but I'd suspect they are pretty close. But in contrast a higher print run should make it easier to find a high grade copy, so even if it was higher that should help hold the multiplier in check. Released one after the other ought to make it easier to find both books in similar grades, so the price difference to me would not be as extreme.

I see and agree with the gist of what you are saying as it applies to comics on a broader level, though. I think it is something that people should take into account or at least look into before deciding how they want to invest/collect/speculate. Not that there is a right/wrong, but to make sure they are putting their money toward what they hope to be buying. Thank you for the post and opening up the discussion!

• Thank you for this VERY thoughtful analysis! Reading what others have posted have made me really think about this in a more complex way. As for opening up the discussion, having a good conversation about comic collecting is what I had hoped for!

Another issue here is the time span between the books. One is definitely silver age and the other is much later Bronze Age. IMO it’s a much different situation than arguing sequential books in the same series. I also think there is some merit on the argument that MS. marvel is not MCU. I personally like uncanny x-men 164 - carol danvers as binary as the Bronze Age option.

Oh no!! the cameo can o' worms!!! Why oh why is Jimmy Olsen 134 worth so much then when Darkseid appears again in last panel but only his head as seen on a monitor screen..so not even a full head shot!! If we go by in multiple panels then Jimmy Olsen 135 has a full bust and close up of his eyes but only on 1 page. It's not until Forever People #1 that we get multiple panels over multiple pages yet FP#1 is waaaayyyyy cheaper than JO 134. The answer is that the comic world is crazy and fickle - lol!!! so many examples -not just books where we inherit the choices of past generations. Batman Who Laughs 1st appearance is in Dark Days :The Casting - and you can still pick raw copies up for almost cover price!! again last page but this time a full body and really we read his words through most of the book...like a build up to a first appearance